 |  | | proposed 3.3 patch - discussion |
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 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:53 pm |
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| Homba |
| Site Admin |
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Some talk has been floating around lately about the possibility of correcting a few problems with the 3.2 patch and making a couple of other incremental changes.
I have be able recently to discuss this with TogD, PZL, and Morca. Here is the proposal. There would be essentially 5 changes:
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1.
Increase Gammon base accuracy back to 400. In 2.0b, 3.0, and 3.1, accuracy was 400. Setting to 350 in 3.2 was a mistake because there are far too many misses now, even in the ideal ambush situations.
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2.
BAR & FG42 jamming fix. Weapon type LtMG (type 13) to MG (type 7) (for MG graphic and jam/break fix, per 'real para': you can easily see where the MG is within the squad, because it will appear the same as the Bren or MG42 (slightly longer gun graphic, clearly identifiable), and the ridiculous (buggy) jam/break rate for the BAR and FG42 is (according to the real-para readme), cured. - This has yet to be tested to see if this cure reported in real-para is true, but we'll test it.
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3.
FJ Sturm: Assign leader the FG42 to avoid its being assigned to an assistant. (However, leader seems to pick up the AssaultMG42 IF AND WHEN all other crew are dead.)
Sturms: drop AsltMG assigned crewmen from 4 men to 3. This lets one other guy use his normal weapon, instead of being occupied "assisting" the machinegunner. Leader can pick up MG if all crew die, so AssltMG will still be very survivable/passable.
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4.
G sniper : add 2 clips = from 40 to 56 total rounds.
After checking clip reload time which i thought slow, it is in line with other clip reload times. So no change suggested there.
G snipers have only 5 clips (Gwehr43 soldier) for 40 total rounds. While US, BR and PO snipers have 60 or 70 rounds. G snipers run out of ammo very fast. Suggest increasing clips to 7, for 56 total rounds.
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5.
Zook/Schreck/PIAT
Speed up reload time from base 200 (20 seconds) to base 160 (16 seconds) for zook and schreck. PIAT was a lot slower, had to be recocked like a heavy crossbow (reportedly very hard to do). Leave reload time at 200.
But increase HEAT long range for PIAT from 60m to 70m - giving better chances against the 60m flamer of HFP. Reported british army field testing range for PIAT is 100 YARDS. But it was considered a one-shot weapon by most british troops due to the monumental difficulty of reloading in combat conditions. 70m seems to be an acceptable compromise not differing radically from the traditional CC2 experience.
Also a light tweak to piat smoke range, increasing long range to 90m.
In 2.0b the ranges were:
Zook Heat PB=10 Close=25 Med=50 Long=80
Zook Smoke PB=10 Close=25 Med=50 Long=160
PIAT Heat PB=10 Close=25 Med=45 Long=60
PIAT Smoke PB=10 Close=25 Med=45 Long=70
In 3.2 the ranges are:
Zook Heat PB=15 Close=30 Med=50 Long=80
Zook Smoke PB=10 Close=25 Med=50 Long=160
PIAT Heat PB=10 Close=30 Med=45 Long=60
PIAT Smoke PB=10 Close=25 Med=45 Long=70
In 3.3 the ranges for HEAT and SMOKE would be:
Zook Heat PB=15 Close=30 Med=50 Long=80
Zook Smoke PB=15 Close=40 Med=70 Long=160
PIAT Heat PB=10 Close=30 Med=45 Long=70
PIAT Smoke PB=10 Close=30 Med=50 Long=90
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Please give your comments, approval, disapproval, questions. The 3.3 patch, when the details are settled, will be available as a plugin and as an auto-installer from TogashiD's Ammo Dump site.
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Last edited by Homba on Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:37 am |
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| ScanC |
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| Joined: 24 May 2005 |
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Lots of good changes!
About the Piat range change from 60m -> 70m; will 60m to 65m do the trick?
I'd personally LOVE to see more vehicles beeing used. Assault tanks and german halftracks could have there prices reduced. Some of them a lot. |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:53 am |
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| kreiger0 |
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| Joined: 31 Dec 2001 |
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| Location: California |
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| Proposals seem good to me. As for vehicle prices, map points can always be adjusted. Any consideration to look at the survivability of a Halftrack to mg fire? Seems they are suceptable after only a few burst, were they really such wimpy vehicles? The Germans seemed to rely on them for exursions into the front lines, look at the variations, but we NEVER use them for that. Thanks to those responsible for these updates. k0 |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:20 pm |
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| CB_Recon |
| Colonel |
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| Joined: 29 Sep 2001 |
| Posts: 824 |
| Location: Lakeland, Florida |
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| get rid of the flame mans grenade. I dont know if anyone else has seen it, but even with the 3.2 patch, I sometimes have my allied flame man throw a grenade instead of shoot his flame in ideal situations. I dont know if this was addressed before, but I have seen this happen to me more than a couple times since the issue of the 3.2 patch. |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:27 pm |
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| BR_Braz |
| Major |
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| Joined: 30 May 2001 |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:58 pm |
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| sample |
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| Joined: 18 Sep 2005 |
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the 2cm L/55 gun was kept in 3.2 as type 9 = large gun;
but if it is changed to 7 [MG type] will use the distictiv sound of 3 rounds per burst
cheers
M. |
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CC2 Operation Market-Garden Mod |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:57 pm |
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| BoroXXX |
| 5 Star General |
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| Joined: 20 Feb 2003 |
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| Location: Zagreb, Hrvatska |
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| Quote: |
| BAR & FG42 jamming fix. Weapon type LtMG (type 13) to MG (type 7) (for MG graphic and jam/break fix, per 'real para': you can easily see where the MG is within the squad, because it will appear the same as the Bren or MG42 (slightly longer gun graphic, clearly identifiable), and the ridiculous (buggy) jam/break rate for the BAR and FG42 is (according to the real-para readme), cured. - This has yet to be tested to see if this cure reported in real-para is true, but we'll test it. |
I am al for the gun-jamming-cure. FG42 was a good weapon, but hard to produce, and that's why only some 7000 pieces was produced (maybe we should have less of those rifles, and more of Sturmgewehr 44?).
However, FG42 wasn't a machine gun. It was really the first assault rifle, but it was produced to be used with the standard carabine bullet - which was too strong for the purpose. That's why the weapon was supplied with the bipod, but even with that addition it was hard to control bcs the gun was too light for it's ammo and it jumped up and right when shooting burst. That's why it is much more accurate for single-bullet fire.
On the other hand, the gun was very controlable when firing bursts from the hip.
Something like that is prolly impossible for the cc2 machine, so I would propose that the FG42 is to be used as a very accurate semi-auto weapon. It would be much more realistic in light of the facts I just stated.
| Quote: |
4.
G sniper : add 2 clips = from 40 to 56 total rounds.
After checking clip reload time which i thought slow, it is in line with other clip reload times. So no change suggested there.
G snipers have only 5 clips (Gwehr43 soldier) for 40 total rounds. While US, BR and PO snipers have 60 or 70 rounds. G snipers run out of ammo very fast. Suggest increasing clips to 7, for 56 total rounds. |
In fact, G 43 used 10 rds clips. It seems that in CC2 we dropped the rds number to 8  !
I think we should stick to the facts in this question.
I'll be back... |
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_________________
"True patriotism sometimes requires of men to act exactly contrary, at one period, to that which it does at another, and the motive which impels them — the desire to do right — is precisely the same."
- Robert E. Lee |
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| | | Re: proposed 3.3 patch - discussion |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:37 pm |
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| Luft_Karabiner |
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| Joined: 12 Feb 2005 |
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| Location: About to take Arnhem Bridge... |
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| Homba wrote: |
Speed up reload time from base 200 (20 seconds) to base 160 (16 seconds) for zook and schreck. PIAT was a lot slower, had to be recocked like a heavy crossbow (reportedly very hard to do). Leave reload time at 200.
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actually, once the piat had been cocked once there was no need to do it again because the spring cocked itself. |
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Luft_Karabiner
"If the British ever manage to bomb Germany you can call me Meier!" (Josheph Goebbels)
Join The Luftwaffe Close Combat clan! Go to www.geocities.com/luft_toten/ |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:23 pm |
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| JIHADXX |
| Colonel |
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| Joined: 01 Jan 2002 |
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| Location: london, england |
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any way of getting rid of the hugely annoying "conserving ammo" thing? most annoying when the flame units have only fired a few shots then they wont fire due to conserving, or another scenario when u have a match winning shot with a tank but the b@stard wont fire cos he is conserving. Conserving should be in the hands of the player.
another suggestion, can u up the accuracy of the sniper?, just a little, not too much to make him too good a unit for the price, but slightly. |
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"And they dare to call them terrorists while they rain down their bombs". |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:26 am |
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| Homba |
| Site Admin |
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| Joined: 27 May 2001 |
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Thanks for the feedback so far, and please keep it coming, especially those who have yet to comment.
ScanC & Luft_Karabiner on the PIAT - I did a lot of research on the piat, there is a thread around here with all the links I posted in it, maybe the 3.2 thread. The test field range was reportedly 100 yards (about 90m). Now we know that the zook, schreck and piat all have reduced effective ranges in CC2, and I believe this compensates (in CC2) for a soldier's reluctance to reveal their position in a battlefield situation taking very long, inaccurate shots (though it was tougher to spot a piat being fired). I think 70m is not a big deal. Since we are thinking of reducing the very long reload rate of the zook and schreck toward the realm of reason reflected in CC3+ (though still much slower at 160), it seems the piat needs some compensation as well, and giving it 10m more range is not a radical change. And we have always sought, in the 3.x patch project, to avoid radical change that would make CC2 unrecognizable from what we have always played from the beginning. I think if we increase it, we might as well go to 70m, rather than 65. Thanks for refreshing my memory, Luft, I now recall the recock is the way the PIAT was supposed to work in theory, but it almost never did in practice due to the design just not working with respect to the recock via propellant explosion. That is what I have read. I need to find my PIAT links.
Ok, I found what I wrote on PIATs during the 3.2 development. But not the links yet. Here it is:
| Quote: |
PIAT
I did a lot of research on the net regarding the piat. I easily found a lot of nicely presented info online using a Google search. Much was made about the difficulty of the weapon to cock after firing, if you were not lucky enough to have the backblast of the projectile\'s propellant re-cock the weapon. At least one source said many troops considered the piat a one-shot weapon! \"It took an especially strong and specifically trained trooper to cock the weapon.\" \"It could not be cocked from a prone position.\" It was carried around cocked, so that a projectile could be set in the breach and fired when needed. \"The sights are located on the upper tube. they can be adjusted to 70yds or 100yds distance.\" Note yards, the English system of measure, not meters. This seems logically accurate.
70 and 100 yards would equate to approx. 64 and 91 meters. 60 meters is the max range in CC2. I would think that airborne troops with limited ammo etc might be ordered to hold fire at ranges outside the 70 yards, and probably until a target was MUCH closer, given (1) the difficulty of accurate long range shooting, (2) the unreliability of the cocking mechanism (you could potentially render the weapon useless by firing it, you can\'t cock it while prone in cover), and (3) the problem of potentially giving away your position without hitting the tank (see #1), possibly resulting in tank MGs and supporting infantry turn on your position, and your AT weapon potentially useless (see #2).
If I were in command of a unit I would remind my piatman every morning not to fire unless he was sure of a hit and at no account outside the 70 yard (64m) range.
For these reasons, I can see why the CC2 piat was limited to a 60m range. Though perhaps it should have been 64-65m, but 60m is pretty close. I bet it was a rare occasion in WWII that a piat was successfully used to stop a tank in the 70-100m range, and I will keep thinking that unless someone shows me research proving otherwise. I think it is a legitimate statement to say that being rated for 100 yards effective range (whatever that means) on the practice field is a totally different thing than practical effective range in a combat situation.
Please note that in CC2 our Piats have a huge advantage over real life: there is never a problem reloading. So before one can say the PIAT is undereffective in CC2, one must remember that stark fact. The PIAT, as-is, in CC2 is probably far more effective than it ever was in WWII because it never experiences a reloading problem in CC2.
That said, if people wanted it, I would support extending PIAT maximum range from 60 to 65m (a full 70 yards). That would not represent a radical change, and I think would be appropriate for 3.x.
Jerking the CC2 piat\'s max range all the way out to 90m or 100m (some sites -- I think erroniously -- give 100m range)would be a radical change and I would not support it, nor do i think it would be realistic, because it would result in kills being made in CC2 (by a rapidly and reliably reloading CC2 PIAT) at ranges at which they only rarely (if ever!) were made in WWII. |
authority for the above statements found in both of these links:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/PIAT
http://www.arnhemarchive.org/equip_piat.htm
Having re-read this, I am still in favor of increasing CC2 PIAT range out to 70 meters, rather than the 65 I suggested above. But I am including both 65m and 70m in the summary list below. Please state your preference, with reasoning if desired.
As to vehicles, there is something in the works exactly along the lines of what is suggested, but it is not finished and doesn't look to be soon. We'd like to release these simple 3.3 changes, and work on a vehicle proposal for a 4.0 patch later on.
Recon - ever since the original 2.0b patch, the Regular Brit and AB Brit flamers (only) have the "special grenade" which is unique to them in CC2, and usually ineffective - much less effective at least than a flamer blast would have been. US AB and G flamers do not have it. It has been a sort of "easter egg" of CC2, and I think it was retained on that basis in 3.2. But I think you are right, at this point, it is just a hinderance, and results in poor performance by the flamer since it's time of use cannot be controled by the player. I have no problem with removing it from the two Brit Flamers. Please voice any objections.
Hey BRAZ! Happy New Year and good to hear from you!
Sample, that is an interesting find and we'll test it. 2cm/L55 from type 9 to type 7 for a different sound reflecting a 3 round burst.
Boro, I think the FG42 could be structured to function as you describe, though Im not sure about the practical impact on gameplay - I think the effectiveness in CC2 would be about the same. I will look into this. I would not have a problem with the Gwehr43 using six 10-round clips for a total of 60 rounds. Can you give links confirming your assertions about these weapons? I am sure you can, and we'd probably better insist on links to sources when making assertions about historical performance and use of weapons, just as a quality control measure.
Jihad, conserving ammo, absolutely no way to get rid of this is available to us - though I completely agree with you. Increasing sniper accuracy slightly has been looked at before and not implemented, on the basis of 5bar experience snipers being fairly deadly shots, and their exaggerated deadliness in hand-to-hand all for a cost of 2 points, but we can consider it again.
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Please continue comments on (summary list now includes changes suggested above):
1. Restore (increase) gammon to original accuracy level.
2. BAR & FG42 jam fix (plus MG graphic).
3. FJ Sturm: assign FG42 to leader.
--- Tweak FG42 to reflect semi-auto use?
--- Sturm: 3 crew for AssaultMG42 instead of 4 crew.
4. G Snipers: increase ammo by 2 clips.
--- G Snipers: Increase clip from 8 to 10 rounds?
--- Increase base accuracy of all sniper rifles (G and allies) slightly?
5. Slightly increase zook/schreck reload time.
--- Increase PIAT max range from 60m to 65m or 70m?
--- Increase PIAT smoke range to max of 90m.
6. Remove BRIT & AB BRIT flamethrower's "special grenade"
7. 2cm/L55 from type 9 to type 7 for sound reflecting a 3 round burst.
I think that's all of the suggested changes at this point. Please comment.
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Last edited by Homba on Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:51 am |
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| sample |
| Sergeant |
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| Joined: 18 Sep 2005 |
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_________________
CC2 Operation Market-Garden Mod |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:05 am |
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| BoroXXX |
| 5 Star General |
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| Joined: 20 Feb 2003 |
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| Location: Zagreb, Hrvatska |
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I think that sample covered the links issue good enough. I rarely use the Internet for historical researches.
My sources on small arms are:
- Weeks, John: World War II - Small arms, Orbis Publishing Ltd.,
London: 1980
- Hussar (specialized rewiev)
- Hrvatski vojnik (specialized rewiev)
- Vojni leksikon (Military lexicon), JNA, Beograd: 1981
...and a few others, if you want me to list them, I will, but I think that the given sources cover the issue... |
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"True patriotism sometimes requires of men to act exactly contrary, at one period, to that which it does at another, and the motive which impels them — the desire to do right — is precisely the same."
- Robert E. Lee |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:54 pm |
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| upas |
| Captain |
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| Joined: 31 Oct 2001 |
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The zook team has 2 firearms. The loader has a garand and the leader a carbine.
The piat team has only one Enfield. The leader has a pistol. I whish that the piat leader would have a Sten gun, bringing more "juice" to the piat team. The assistant would keep his Enfield. This will protect the piat team better against german infantry. |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:59 pm |
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| upas |
| Captain |
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| Joined: 31 Oct 2001 |
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Add gammon bombs to the poor AB poles.
Since the poles were almost fanatical in fighting the germans, increase their morale one level. |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:13 pm |
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| BigSmoker |
| Lt. Colonel |
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| Joined: 02 Jun 2005 |
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how bout when gun and morter team leaders panic. The gun or morter becomes usless. but if the leader is killed the other men continue to use the weapon. In the panic situation what do the other men do go on smoke break? Don't know if this can be fixed or not.
Daimler: Is a 6lb gun historically correct in this vehicle? It also has a huge amount of rounds that dosen't seem possible in such a small vehicle.
Thanks for taking the time to make are game and gaming community better  . |
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